Cdn-Firearms Digest Tuesday, October 19 1999 Volume 03 : Number 181 In this issue: Re: Looking for downloadable "Observations on a One Way Street" X'ed out letters in FD # 177. EDS Systemhouse Re: Magazine: Alberta Centre for Injury Control and Research UPS handgun shipment policy, what you can do. RE: Privacy gone. Re: Firearms Safety Courses New firearms legislation termed 'terribly vicious' CSIS Act, customs, and firearms. Re: EDS Systemhouse RE: Registration of personal property other than firearms Firearms Digest entry: A tail of 4 Registration Cards. Re: WAKE-UP! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 07:35:41 -0600 From: "Jim Hinter" Subject: Re: Looking for downloadable "Observations on a One Way Street" The NFA has copies of this publication in hard copy. If you would like a copy, please call (403) 640-1198 Jim Hinter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 07:35:33 -0600 From: "Steve Capling" Subject: X'ed out letters in FD # 177. Hi there, I do not think we are strengthening our cause by using language, suggested or otherwise, that is inappropriate to the public support of all firearms owners in Canada. Name calling and labelling only plays to our detractors. I like to think Simon is able to hold to a higher standard. Steve Capling ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 07:35:25 -0600 From: "Andrew D. Kennedy" Subject: EDS Systemhouse As an EDS employee (here in the States), I may be able to offer a little insight into the EDS Systemhouse position. While I certainly don't speak for my company, EDS' role in the world is to use technology to do things (anything) better. Whether there should be a national firearms registry, or the scope of such registry, are up to the politicians to decide. Once the decision to have a registry has been made... may as well make a go at having a decently-running one. As for touting the effectiveness of the registry at promoting safety... well, sometimes marketing can get a little over-eager. That being said, EDS has a company policy specifically prohibiting the possession of firearms on company or customer property, or while on EDS business (except for uniformed security employees.) This policy specifically states that this is regardless of whether one can legally do so. As a holder of a non-restricted concealed-carry permit issued by the State of Michigan, I can walk into a police station with a firearm, but I cannot leave it in my car at work. So, perhaps there is a bit of corporate anti-gun bias. Andrew D. Kennedy Royal Oak, MI ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 07:35:22 -0600 From: "Robin Leech" Subject: Re: Magazine: Western Gun Parts, 17324-106A Avenue Edmonton, Alberta phone: (780) 489-5711 Robin Leech ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 07:35:37 -0600 From: lundgark@telusplanet.net Subject: Alberta Centre for Injury Control and Research http://www.med.ualberta.ca/acicr/ Firearm FACTS Firearm related deaths account for nearly 10% of all injury deaths in Alberta over the past 5 years.1 In 1997, 401 suicides were completed in Alberta. Nearly 20% of these involved the use of a firearm. 2 Nationally, Alberta ranks first among the provinces in the percentage of homes with guns (39%).3 Alberta has one of the highest death rates in the country (6.2/100,000 population). That national rate is 4.6/100,000 population. 4 A home with a gun is 5 times more likely to be the scene of a suicide and 3 times more likely to be the scene of a murder than a home without a gun 5 In 1997 in Alberta more young people died as a result of an encounter with a firearm than died due to leukemia 2 95% of all deaths in Alberta in 1997 involving firearms were intentional. 1 Among 26 industrialized countries, Canada ranked 5th in rate of firearm related deaths among children aged less than 15 years. 6 The rate of children killed with guns in Alberta is almost twice the national average and it is in fact comparable to the combined rates of Israel and Northern Ireland. 7 In Alberta in 1996, more than 3 people are hospitalized each month with unintentional firearm related injuries. 8 - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- Vital Statistics, Annual Review (1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997), Alberta Municipal Affairs Vital Statistics, Annual Review 1997, Alberta Municipal Affairs Department of Justice "Fact Sheet: Number of Firearm Owners and Firearms in Canada"; 1997 Kwing Hung. Firearm Statistics (Supplementary Table); Department of Justice; 1995 Kellermann A.L. Et Al "Gun Ownership as a Risk Factor for Homicide in the Home"; New England Journal of Medicine; Oct 1993 and Kellerman A.L. Et Al "Suicide in the Home in Relation to Gun Ownership"; New England Journal of Medicine; August 13, 1992 Centers for Disease Control; "Rates of Homicide, Suicide, and Firearm Related Death Among Children - 26 Industrialized Countries" MMWR Vol. 46/No. 5, 1997 Kwing Hung. Firearm Statistics; Department of Justice; 1997 and Centers for Disease Control "Rates of Homicide, Suicide, and Firearm Related Death Among Children - 26 Industrialized Countries" MMWR Vol. 46/No. 5, 1997 Alberta Inpatient Separations; CIHI Database, 1996 - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- Karen & Jerrold Lundgard Peace River, Alberta mailto:lundgark@telusplanet.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 07:35:29 -0600 From: Aaron Burns Subject: UPS handgun shipment policy, what you can do. Seems like it's time for a short posting, for a change. As many of you know, UPS has come under fire here for unfriendly shipping policies. In the US (at least, I haven't checked in Canada), they are now requiring expensive overnight shipping for handguns (due to and internal theft problem). http://perfectunion.com/petitions/Petition_UPS/ talks about the issue, and lets you 'sign' an email petition. This site claims to have been part of the reason that KMart is not making any more ads with Rosie O'Donnell. - --Aaron Burns Comrace Resources Inc. (905)332-7430 "They were answered as I have been answered - aaronb@acm.org and for the same reasons." BMW R1100RSL '95 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 07:35:47 -0600 From: "Ted Carron" Subject: RE: Privacy gone. Ladies and Gentlemen, I certainly hope that the man in question has had the woman charged with being a "peeping tom". As far as I know it is illegal to "peep in" at your neighbour. After all, he was doing nothing illegal. Regards T. Carron ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 12:02:30 -0600 From: Dave Tomlinson Subject: Re: Firearms Safety Courses >Recently in Nova Scotia the administration aspect of the firearms safety >course was taken over by our community colleges as dictated by the >CFO. They provide the facilities and register the students and we do >the lecturing and testing. The manner in which revenues are >allocated have become a sore point... >I am going to try and make a case for allowing our club to adminster our >own courses. I understand that in other provinces that is the >case. The key to this lies in the Canadian Firearms Safety Course Instructor rating. Any CFCS Instructor can give the course and certify the graduates. No known authority is given to any CFO to control the Instructors, or to control how Instructors are paid. Therefore: Tell the CFO that your club will be offering courses. The rates will be set by the individual Instructors. If he has an objection, ask him to supply you, in writing, a copy of the legislation that allows him to control what you intend to do. If he supplies you with paper giving him authority -- paper generated by himself, and signed by himself -- REJECT it and demand a copy of the LEGISLATION that gives him authority in this area. David A Tomlinson National President, National Firearms Association Ph: (780)439-1394 Fax: (780)439-4091 natpres@nfa.ca Box 1779, EDMONTON AB, T5J 2P1 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 12:02:27 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: New firearms legislation termed 'terribly vicious' Four Town Journal Box 68 Langenburg, Sask. S0A 2A0 Fax: (306) 743-2299 Date: October 13, 1999 Page: 1 New firearms legislation termed 'terribly vicious' There's a boom in the business of buying, selling and trading antique rifles thanks to Canada's new firearms regulations. But that sure doesn't mean that a collector and trader such as Dennis DeForest of Saskatoon is going to like the new regulations. Sitting beside his display of antique firearms at the Churchbridge Gun and Hobby Show this past weekend. DeForest matter-of-factly poked numerous holes in the new federal regulations, despite the fact that he is seeing a growth in interest in antique rifles because of those same regulations. "The market is increasing tremendously all the time because (antique rifles) are now the only firearm you can, first of all, own, and secondly, possess without a licence of any kind." The major problem, DeForest quickly adds, is that "the government didn't leave a lot of firearms that were antique." "We probably have the narrowest antique schedule anywhere in the world." To be called an antique, he explains, a firearm must have been built before 1898, it must be a percussion or flintlock type, or it can be a cartridge firearm of the single shot or double rifle variety with more no smaller than .33 calibre. As far as shotguns are concerned, none are considered antiques, says DeForest. "There are millions of antique, old shotguns that can never be shot again...but they must not only be registered but they must also have a licence to possess." Complicating the issue even further, he says, is the fact that, in the eyes of the law, "there's a difference between possessing and owning." "You must have permission, from the government to buy the firearm at the time of the transaction, as well as having the licence to buy it." That licence to buy the firearm is renewable every five years at a cost of $60. A major point of contention for avid firearms owners such as DeForest is the fact that firearms possession licence can be suspended at any time by the chief firearms officer for "cause." "For all practical purposes, anything that isn't antique is on lease from the government." This, he believes, will have a serious impact upon the sale of expensive, modern firearms "so that if something happens you're not bankrupt. "If you're looking at investment items you sure aren't going to invest in something that one bureaucrat, without any court action or anything else, can take away from you." "It's a terribly vicious piece of legislation." He wonders how members of the general public would react if the same kind of regulations were placed on ownership of their house or car? "This de facto confiscation of property without any recompense whatsoever. Hence the attraction to those guns that are antique. They require no paperwork, no authorization, no possession certificate. You can buy them, like I can go over there and buy a plate of chips." One repercussion is that Canadian antique firearms dealers who currently own or have access to antique firearms don't fall within this country's restrictive definition of antique are developing overseas mail order businesses to sell those firearms. "I'm bundling up piles and piles of firearms and shipping them to Europe," says DeForest. "We're selling some antique firearms in Canada and most Canadians are in a state of shock. A few people understand and are investing in antique firearms but most are just sitting and spinning their wheels." The fact that the new regulations are being implemented slowly but surely, despite strong, vocal objections from firearms owners such as himself, doesn't surprise DeForest at all. "It's a fact of life. We're a very small percentage of the population of Canada. Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal determine the governments of the country." Unfortunately, he continues, federal and to a lesser extent provincial regulations are having a very negative impact upon Saskatchewan's economy, which in 1992 realized an economic spinoff of some $100 million from hunting. DeForest believes that the number of U.S. hunters coming to this province for goose hunting is dropping considerably. "Provincial governments do not view hunters as an economic asset. They view them as something to be controlled and suspected." On result that DeForest is predicting is that the goose population will increase sharply. "The rules are conserving geese that have become nothing but a bloody nuisance. In five to ten years we'll be poisoning them because you can't shoot them. An entire asset is going down the drain." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 12:02:38 -0600 From: briandrader@canada.com Subject: CSIS Act, customs, and firearms. The CSIS act "may" be located at: http://www.csis-scrs.gc.ca/eng/act/csisacte.html Note that CSIS can accept and pass on information from Canadian or US agencies, based upon suspicion alone. The relevant sections are included here: - ------------------- 17. (1) For the purpose of performing its duties and functions under this Act, the Service may, (a) with the approval of the Minister, enter into an arrangement or otherwise cooperate with (i) ***any*** department [****READ: Canada Customs******] of the Government of Canada or the government of a province or any department thereof, or (ii) any police force in a province, with the approval of the Minister responsible for policing in the province; or (b) with the approval of the Minister after consultation by the Minister with the Minister of Foreign Affairs, enter into an arrangement or otherwise cooperate with the government of a foreign state or an institution thereof [READ: BATF/US Customs] or an international organization of states or an institution thereof. 19.(2) The Service may disclose information ? for the purposes of the performance of its duties and functions under this Act or the administration or enforcement of this Act or as required by any other law and may also disclose such information, (a) where the information may be used in the investigation or prosecution of an alleged contravention of ***any**** law [READ: C-68] of Canada or a province, to a peace officer having jurisdiction to investigate the alleged contravention and to the Attorney General of Canada and the Attorney General of the province in which proceedings in respect of the alleged contravention may be taken - ----------------- The average firearm owner probably doesn't need to worry about this, unless CSIS suspects you for whatever reason (Say if you happen to be a political activist and a person at CSIS suspects that you've imported but not registered a firearm) or if you need to pass security checks. My point was that if Customs has paperwork on an imported firearm, it would be unwise to assume that that paperwork can't reach law enforcement. Cheers, Brian PS I apologize to Peter for noting that he "may" be correct - I said "may" only as a bit of a weasel-word, indicating that I'd simply not confirmed the wording of the Customs Act. I should add that I've never known Peter to be less than witty and insightful, and that his opinions are generally well-founded and accurate. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 12:02:41 -0600 From: lundgark@telusplanet.net Subject: Re: EDS Systemhouse "Andrew D. Kennedy" wrote: >As an EDS employee (here in the States), I may be able to offer a little >insight into the EDS Systemhouse position. snip >That being said, EDS has a company policy specifically prohibiting the >possession of firearms on company or customer property, or while on EDS >business (except for uniformed security employees.) This policy >specifically states that this is regardless of whether one can legally do >so. As a holder of a non-restricted concealed-carry permit issued by the >State of Michigan, I can walk into a police station with a firearm, but I >cannot leave it in my car at work. > >So, perhaps there is a bit of corporate anti-gun bias. > >Andrew D. Kennedy >Royal Oak, MI Company policy overrides a permit authorized and issued by the state? Karen & Jerrold Lundgard Peace River, Alberta mailto:lundgark@telusplanet.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 12:02:44 -0600 From: "Ted Carron" Subject: RE: Registration of personal property other than firearms Ladies and Gentlemen, Please note that "ham radios" are NOT registered with the federal government, the USERS must be in order to do it transmit. Note that I chose the word "users", not owner. You only need the license if you are going to be transmitting. There are different classes of license depending on your qualifications. This matches up pretty well with the NFA's ideas on firearms control.. Regards T. G. Carron ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 12:09:16 -0600 From: "Boudreau, Marcel" Subject: Firearms Digest entry: A tail of 4 Registration Cards. I just wanted to pass this on to see if anyone else is having any more success (if that's the correct word to be used here). I have purchased four firearms over the last 11 months (I was making up for lost time after being a bit away from the shooting sports for about 15 years). Over that time the CFC score is: 1 registration card issued within 5 days of purchase (a handgun purchased from a Quebec company that did all the paperwork); 1 registration card with incorrect information and information I did not put on the form. The card was issued within 2 months of purchase, I sent it back for correction and I haven't heard back from them since. The gun was a Ruger 10/22 and they refused to accept my entry of 'unknown' for magazine capacity. They also refused to register actual the serial number on the gun - - apparently they drop any dash "-" characters when entering the serial number into their computer. I have an actual letter from the RCMP stating this is how they handle all firearms so I now have a letter to carry with the registration card should it ever arrive again. 1 pistol purchased last December that they have yet to send a registration card for. 1 shot gun for which they have sent a form with apparently 'verified' information for me to sign and take responsibility for. Considering the poor performance on the previous two guns, I'm in no hurry to send that form in (with most information removed to bring it to a frame only). So it looks like for me CFC has 1 run, 1 foul ball, 1 batter lost on the way to the home plate and 1 batter in the wrong stadium. Is this about the same for everyone else? MG Boudreau Web master for The Atlantic Marksmen Association web page: http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Recreation/AMA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 12:49:12 -0600 From: Dave Tomlinson Subject: Re: WAKE-UP! >Regarding: National Post DATE: 1999.10.12 EDITION: National SECTION: News >PAGE: A11 BYLINE: Jan Cienski >"The best estimates suggest that ... one-quarter of Canadian households own >at least one firearm [1]." >Reference: http://cfc-ccaf.gc.ca/Research/Reports_2/registration_en.html >The best estimates suggest that there are in the order of 6,000,000 >firearms in Canada. The number of weapons recorded in the Restricted >Weapons Registration System maintained by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police >at the end of 1993 was 1,221,179. At least 5,000,000 firearms are >unrestricted and not therefore subject to registration. Approximately >one-quarter of Canadian households own at least one firearm [1]." >[1] Department of Justice Canada, National Survey of Firearm Ownership in >Canada (1991, Angus Reid Group) Actually, those 1,221,179 registered firearms are registered in a system that is riddled with errors, omissions, and duplications. At least 221,179 of those firearms are "gone guns" or "ghost guns." A "gone gun" is created when its registered owner dies, emigrates or moves without notifying the registration folk. When that happens, all registration certificates for all firearms owned by that owner become meaningless trash. There is no known way to tell a "gone gun" registration certificate in their files from a valid registration certificate. A "ghost gun" is created when the registration folk issue a registration certificate to a new owner without deleting the registration certificate issued to the former owner. When that happens, the new owner has a valid registration certificate, and the previous owner is shown in the record system as still having the firearm -- he is in possession of a "ghost gun." There is no known way to tell a "ghost gun" registration certificate in their registration files from a valid registration certificate. So -- let us assume that there are 1,000,000 real firearms registered in the registration system. Go to any gun show, gun store, gun range or other place where firearms appear in large numbers. The ratio of unrestricted firearms to restricted and prohibited firearms is at least 20 to 1. Therefore, if there are 1million registered firearms, there must be 20 million unregistered firearms out there. The government deliberately cut that number from a total of 21 million firearms to a total of 6 million firearms to disguise the fact that resistance to registration of long arms is rampant, and is certain to continue long past the 01 Jan 2003 deadline for all firearms to be registered. That is because it looks SO much better to have registered 2 million out of 6 million -- rather than 2 million out of 21 million. You doubt that 21 million figure? In 1976, as part of the buildup toward passing the 1977 gun law, the government's estimate of the number of firearms in Canada was a more realistic 18 million. In 1991, government officials testified to the House committee that NET importation of firearms into Canada (imports minus exports) runs (long-term average) at 190,000 firearms a year. By Dec 1993, imports plus 18 million would have brought the total to 21,610,000 firearms in Canada. Subtract 610,000 plus one firearm for every firearm manufactured IN Canada (losses from destruction and all other causes), and you are right back at 21 million. Restricted firearm ownership increased from 861,571 in Dc 1984 to 1,221,179 in Dec 93. That is a 41.74 per cent increase in just nine years. Take the government's 1976 estimate of 18 million total firearms, and compare it to our 21 million figure for Dec 93. Our estimated increase is only 16.67 per cent over 17 years -- because we are very conservative. The government's 6 million figure is a lie. And our government knows that. All right, now you try one. If one quarter of all Canadian households contain firearms, how many households are we talking about? Got that answer? OK. Now, worldwide, regardless of country, the average firearms owner has, on average, three firearms; so multiply the number of households by three to find the total number of firearms. Now consider this: Firearms ownership in cities may well be only a quarter of all households, but firearms ownership in rural areas is nearly universal in Canada. Therefore, the figure of at least one firearm in one quarter of all Canadian households is probably a grave underestimate. David A Tomlinson National President, National Firearms Association Ph: (780)439-1394 Fax: (780)439-4091 natpres@nfa.ca Box 1779, EDMONTON AB, T5J 2P1 ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #181 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:parry@ionline.net List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ Digest Back-issues: by FTP (cd pub/cdn-firearms/Digests), or visit the Cdn-Firearms web site (above), or put the next command in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v03.n022 end (022 is the digest issue number and 03 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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