Cdn-Firearms Digest Thursday, October 21 1999 Volume 03 : Number 184 In this issue: Re: ATT: Dave Tomlinson EPA Re: London Free Press Article Hurricane Camp puffs up Costly entertainment More Guns Less Crime Re: VICTORIA ELECTION, AUSTRALIA C-68 Signs NEW NFA CONVERT Registration UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES Embarrassing Typo Communiqu le_21_octobre_1999 Re:. UPS 'SECRET' LETTER PROVES RCMP PLAYED POLITICS ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 21:08:16 -0600 From: Dave Tomlinson Subject: Re: ATT: Dave Tomlinson >About a year ago I decided that I might wish to use one of my lighter >firearms for deer hunting. Accordingly, I arranged to have a four inch >extension added to the barrel of my M-1 carbine. The extension is not >intended to obscure the flash, or to muffle the sound of the shot, or to >change the recoil response of the firearm. Last week I began making >inquiries about the reclassification process. Several people I spoke >with, including one that offerred to come to my home and train me as a >verifier so that I could complete the reclassification forms myself, did >not seem to think >it was a problem. However, a person in the Provincial Firearms Officer >office claimed that the only valid extension (he admitted that some >M-1 carbines have in fact been rebarreled and re-registered) is one in >which the rifleing is continuous with that of the primary barrel. This >regulation seems to be in conflict with the barrel length (at least 18.5 >inches) regulation. He claims that Nova Scotia is following a protocol >that was defined by the fed some time ago. Could it be that, if I >rebarrel >the firearm, I can proceed to have it reclassified to unrestricted but if >I >extend the barrel using an attachment that is perminently welded to the >original barrel - but that does not have rifleing - I am unable to >reclassify the firearm? I don't mind the idea of rebarreling except that >I have had no luck in locating an "aftermarket" barrel. Is there any way >out, or should I just lay out the bucks for a Mini 14? What do you >suggest? This is a gray area. If the extension is WELDED on, in my view, it is part of the barrel and not another part which should be excluded when measuring the barrel, because there is no clear dividing line between barrel proper and extension. If it is REMOVABLE and replaceable along a clear line by heating and pulling it off, as would be the case with brazing or soldering, it is probably a "restricted firearm" -- although t may be a "prohibited firearm" under an Order in Council that is VERY confused. There is no requirement IN THE LAW that the barrel have rifling all the way to the muzzle. You might have to fight a court case over it. The charge would be illegal possession of a "restricted" or "prohibited" firearm not registered to you. David A Tomlinson National President, National Firearms Association Ph: (780)439-1394 Fax: (780)439-4091 natpres@nfa.ca Box 1779, EDMONTON AB, T5J 2P1 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 21:10:57 -0600 From: "BOB LICKACZ" Subject: EPA It has been 2 weeks since the Edmonton Police Association (EPA) has voted to remove their endorsement for the registration of "long guns". I called Mr. Bob Claney, executive director of the EPA to get the exact wording of the motion that was passed, on October 6. Mr. Claney was most unco-operative and refused to give me the wording. At this point I will tell you that prior to the Regina CPA meeting, I attended the offices of the EPA. The purpose of my visit was to drop off copies of the NFA Practical Firearms Control System, and to solicit their support for our position. I was told that the voting delegates (6?) of the EPA attending the Regina meeting would CONTINUE to endorse the Registry because of a poll taken of EPA members in 1995, and because another poll was not taken since that time, their "OFFICIAL" position couldn't change. I asked these executives if they would conduct a straw poll of their members consisting of 10% of their membership (the minimum required for statistical validity) and they said "NO". I was later advised that these same executives, were given a petition signed by 25% of their members that directed these executives to remove EPA endorsement of the long gun Registry. These same executives told me they received no letters or petitions in support of the Registry. I do indeed have the exact wording of the motion, but I would prefer that the EPA make a public statement as to the change in their policy. It appears as if even though the "rank and file" cops are on our side, the executives of the "rank and file" cops are reluctant to honestly reflect the wishes of their constituents. I have been given to understand that at least one of these executives has a "firearms related " business that would benefit from the registration of long guns. I can tell you that I have a LOT of respect and confidence in the "rank and file" cops, and I do believe that they will not settle for this crap. Bob Lickacz NFA Edmonton ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 21:08:06 -0600 From: Tom Cohoe Subject: Re: London Free Press Article Just so the world knows we take care that our statistics are correct. Jean-Francois Avon wrote: >[...] >The text say: >>[snip] what normally follows from that [policeman being disarmed] is, >>in fact, a murder, [snip] >> >>Later, it say that in the past 25 years, of the 22 murdered on the >>job, 3 were killed with thier own revolver. >> >>So, 3 on 22 (or, 13.6%) qualify as "what normally follows", normalcy. Uh, this is a big mistake JFA. The article didn't claim that most policemen killed on the job are killed with their own revolvers. It claimed that what normally follows disarmament of a police officer is a murder. The number of policemen disarmed on the job by assailants is not given, and you can't make the calculation you purport to make. Tom Cohoe ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 21:08:03 -0600 From: Jim Davies Subject: Hurricane Camp puffs up > COLUMN: Dalton Camp > > The editor of my morning provincial paper has received a letter (with > attachments) .., Congratulations to Al for provoking such outraged squeals from that great pontificator of the ConLib view at the trough, D Camp. Anyone who has read his fatuous twaddlings or heard him on Pravda Canada Ltee' will know him by his casual arrogance [as shown above.] He will undoubtedly need some help from members of the RFC if he is to garner enough votes to do anything. Even though a few minutes of his speech could float the ReMax balloon indefinately, his following is [outside the CBC] very small indeed. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 21:08:00 -0600 From: "chris gilmore" Subject: Costly entertainment It makes me chuckle when I see the situation that has the Federal Liberals "wide eyed and wondering". It reminds me of a flyfisherman who keeps trying to "float" the perfect cast (being politically correct) and sooner or later catches himself in the seat of the pants. The Liberals have "caught themselves" to the tune of five billion dollars although it will be us the taxpayers who foot the bill. Ouch! But I still enjoy the chuckle. It seems the Government fails to listen to the "common man" and merrily foists it's agenda declaring it's "for their own good". By their not listening to the "common" man how can we expect any "common sense" from them? A prime example is their inventing and forcing of Bill C-68, the gun control, bill on us. It's way over budget,($200 mil+) and has not accomplished anything except making most honest people very angry. I wonder if they will "scrap" it soon or start throwing even more money at it. Who ever said "politics is boring"? I just wish it wouldn't cost me so much! Thank you, Chris Gilmore Box 656 Logan Lake, BC ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 21:08:09 -0600 From: "Jim Hinter" Subject: More Guns Less Crime We have just received another shipment of "More Guns, Less Crime", by John R. Lott Jr. This book is the results of Lott's study of the relationship between firearm laws and confrontational violence in the United States. This is the book the "anti's" don't want you to read. Lott puts forward his thesis in great detail and proves his book is properly titled. Copies are $35.00 each plus $5 shipping and handling from SHOP NFA Call (403) 640-1198 to order. Jim Hinter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 21:08:13 -0600 From: "Bill Rantz" Subject: Re: VICTORIA ELECTION, AUSTRALIA From: ANDREW SUTCLIFFE Date: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 5:20 AM Subject: VICTORIA ELECTION The final outscome of the VICTORIA state election on Sept 18th (first since the 1996 Howard Gun Grab ) is now known. The gun grabbing Liberal National Party Coalition lost its 20 seat majority to end up with 43 of the 88 seats and the ALP 42 with 3 pro-gun independents from rural areas controlling the balance of power. Yesterday they opted to go with the ALP thus ending a 7 reign of the Coalition and its econcomic rationalist scorched earth polices. It is significant to note that the Liberal lost this election solely because of losing supprt in rural and semi-rural areas outside the city where gun owners are many. This State election now mark the final one since the Howard gun grab and complete the devastation of the Coaliition with all eastern seaboard states now in the control the the ALP. Only WA, SA and Nortnern Territory have Coalition govts and SA is a minority one relying on independents and in WA the govt does not control the upper house. ALL THANKS TO PM HOWARD'S GUN LAWS. Howard looked pretty sick yesterday on the tv yesterday after the Victorian result was known. They'll be sharpening the knives in the party room you can bet. Pass this on ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 05:43:35 -0600 From: "Dan Lupichuk Sask. President N.F.A." Subject: C-68 Signs Sask. Branch has had a request for a quantity of the "Remember C-68 When You Vote" plastic bag type signs. Anyone having any left please contact me by e-mail or phone (306) 332-3907. Request is urgent. Thanks Dan Lupichuk Sask. Pres. NFA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 16:29:15 -0600 From: "BOB LICKACZ" Subject: NEW NFA CONVERT - -----Original Message----- From: Jim Powlesland >Speaking of Valin, who are the morons sending him death-threats? > >Valin is now denying media requests for his photo claiming that his life >is in danger. Hey Jean, would you like to buy a short barrelled .25 cal. easily concealed semi-auto? It sure's Hell will be more reliable than calling 911 and waiting for the cops to come. Besides, if I were you Jean, I wouldn't be counting that they would show up to save you. (I did overhear at the CPA conference that you are not that popular with them either!!) By the way Jean, by becoming a firearms owner you will soon find out the kind of crap WE have to put up with. Bob Lickacz NFA Edmonton ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 16:29:31 -0600 From: Gordon Subject: Registration The more I think of this the less it makes sense! If I apply for a FAC or PAL License I end up registered as a gun owner. If the police are enroute to my house for some reason and check the CPIC computers (and they are up that day) I will be shown as a Firearms Owner. They are forewarned, the person they are going to serve with a Notice for Jury Duty or whatever is a Firearms Owner - take precautions! Now what difference should it make to them what kind of Firearms I have, a .22 single shot cooey or a 4.7 Deck Gun from a Destroyer! Of course if I am a Criminal with a history of Violence with a Firearm or a member of the NFA they will gamble on the side of safety and send the SWAT Team, striking as I turn out the lights for bed! There can be no logical reason for Registration except confiscation! We ignore history and register at our own peril. Gordon - -- Confiscation created a safer society for Adolph Hitler - Anne McLennan wants that kind of safety! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 16:29:20 -0600 From: "BOB LICKACZ" Subject: UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES From: David Brewerton >One proof of that happened a few years ago in Saskatchewan. They raised >the Provincial Sales tax to 9% from 7% (I believe) to collect about >$300,000,000 extra taxes annually. What happened was about $200,000,000 >less raised than under the old rate. People simply didn't buy or they >came to Alberta to buy without sales tax. My bagman (accountant) told me about this fiasco in Saskatchewan. Now for all you fedspooks tuning in, this is what's called an UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCE. In your zeal to lick your political master's boots, you have now ensured that the black market in firearms will continue to flourish. You see back in the pre-Firearms Act days, most illegal firearms transactions were conducted by criminals with criminal intent. The Firearms Act has re-defined the word criminal, to include those people who up till now, were essentially the back bone of the country. The problem you fedspooks now face is that this new criminal that you have created doesn't believe that he is indeed a criminal. This concept may be hard for fedspooks to grasp so I will attempt to give you an example. Let's suppose for a minute that you are at your local school fundraising bar-be-que. A couple of fellows you have met before are talking in hushed tones. You overhear that one says that he needs someone to drive a getaway car for a robbery he is planning. Don't you agree that the first thing you would do is call our friends in blue and turn them in. Simple right? Most Canadians would consider robbery to be a socially unacceptable behaviour, therefore the eyes of the community become an extention of our criminal justice system. Now same time, same place, you overhear the same two guys talking about building a deck. One of the guys says that the price will be $2500 plus GST, or $2200 cash. This is transaction if completed will defraud the federal government of $175 GST plus the tax on the unreported income of the back alley carpenter. This too is criminal behaviour. The big difference between these two criminal actions lies in the public perception. Most Canadians do not approve of the GST. The most likely outcome of this overheard conversation is absolutely nothing. It is highly unlikely that anyone would "squeal" on the carpenter. In fact, there would be a good possibility that if you needed a deck built, that you would approach the carpenter for a "deal" too. The Firearms Act and its accompanying red tape is a no-brainer. Fedspooks, firearms, like any other commodity will continue to be bought and sold. By creating a bureaucratic maze, you have simply encouraged people to conduct transactions outside the law. Given the number of transactions I have personally seen, this behaviour is quite socially acceptable. This acceptance is universal in the firearms community, if not the majority of Canadian society. 80% approve of the Firearms Act? HA!!! I'll bet all those people who are not firearms owners wouldn't walk across the street to support you fedspooks. Your support truly is a mile wide and one inch deep. Bob Lickacz NFA Edmonton ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 16:29:23 -0600 From: archer0@home.com Subject: Embarrassing Typo In Digest 177, I wrote an email complaining that my PAL application had ended up in Miramachi, when I should have written Montreal. Now I look like the idiot who can't remember addresses. I would have corrected the mistake sooner but I've been away on a moose hunt and just got back to a number of emails from the chat group and the CFC which state the obvious, Mirimachi is in NB. Anyway, the warning remains the same, if you don't live in Quebec make sure your application isn't going there. Cheers Scott ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 16:29:10 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Communiqu le_21_octobre_1999 Communique le 21 octobre 1999 Pour publication immediate une lettre < secrete > prouve que la grc a fait de la politique a l'appui du registre des armes a feu < Le siege de la GRC a Ottawa a interrompu un sondage independant mene aupres de ses agents de terrain > Ottawa - Garry Breitkreuz, depute de Yorkton-Melville et porte-parole de l'Opposition officielle pour les armes a feu, a rendu publics d'autres documents embarrassants obtenus en vertu de la Loi sur l'acces a l'information. Cette fois, il prend la GRC a faire de la politique partisane en cachant que ses agents de terrain s'opposent au systeme d'enregistrement des armes a feu des Liberaux. Selon un des documents, un sondage mene par la GRC aupres de 291 agents en poste en Saskatchewan a revele que 91 p. 100 d'entre eux s'opposaient a < l'enregistrement de toutes les armes a feu envisage par le projet de loi C-68 >. Le document ajoute : < La plupart des commentaires accompagnant le sondage indiquent qu'ils estiment que la loi serait impossible a faire respecter et couterait trop cher en ressources financieres et humaines. >. Breitkreuz ajoute : < Un autre document marque SECRET prouve que la GRC a fait ce qui faisait l'affaire du gouvernement en cessant de faire sonder ses agents. > La lettre < Secrete > en date du 23 mai 1995 ordonne de mettre fin au sondage independant mene aupres des agents de la GRC en vue de connaitre leurs vues sur le projet de loi sur l'enregistrement des armes a feu. Le commandant de la Division E a Vancouver, en Colombie-Britannique, avait deja approuve un accord ecrit signe avec le Dr Gary Mauser de l'Universite Simon Fraser en vue de mener le sondage. Voici ce qu'on peut lire dans la lettre < SECRETE > signee pour le sous-commissaire F.G. Palmer du siege de la GRC a Ottawa : < En outre, l'utilite de ce sondage est en ce moment contestable etant donne que le commissaire a deja exprime sa position sur le projet de loi C-68. > < De toute evidence, le commissaire de la GRC avait adopte comme position d'appuyer le controverse systeme d'enregistrement des armes a feu du gouvernement federal sans meme tenir compte des vues de ses agents de terrain >, fait observer Breitkreuz. < Des agents de la GRC telephonent a mon bureau pour parler des problemes que cette loi mal concue leur cause sur le terrain. Si on ajoute a cela les problemes de budget et de dotation en personnel, il n'est pas etonnant que la GRC soit "demoralisee" comme il est dit dans le communique de l'Association canadienne des policiers. > Certains passages de la lettre < SECRETE > ont ete caviardes, mais une ligne dit tout. Le commissaire adjoint Palmer ecrit : < En depit de l'accord ecrit, une fois le sondage mene, sa reconnaissance ne peut pas etre niee. Nous devons veiller a ce que la GRC ne soit pas percue comme partisane. > Breitkreuz commente : < Alors, ce n'est pas partisan pour le commissaire de la GRC d'appuyer le projet de loi le plus controverse que les Liberaux aient fait adopter depuis leur accession au pouvoir, mais c'est etre partisan que de reveler ce que des milliers d'agents de la GRC en pensent. Selon le commissaire et les beni-oui-oui de son etat-major, on est partisan lorsqu'on s'oppose au programme liberal, mais pas lorsqu'on l'appuie. > Un autre des documents fait ressortir clairement la connexion politique. Voici ce que le sergent G.F. Poth ecrit dans une note de service du 12 mai 1995 : < Cette fausse interpretation mettrait la GRC dans une position tres embarrassante en donnant l'impression de discrediter la position que le commissaire, le commissaire adjoint, les Services nationaux de police et le Solliciteur general ont adoptee sur le projet de loi C-68. > Breitkreuz conclut : < Y en a-t-il encore qui pensent que l'etat-major de la GRC opere independamment de ses maitres politiques? > - -30- Pour de plus amples renseignements : Yorkton : (306) 782-3309 Ottawa : (613) 992-4394 Courriel : breitg0@parl.gc.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 16:29:36 -0600 From: lundgark@telusplanet.net Subject: Re:. UPS To Whom It May Concern, Thank you for your kind reply. If my handguns are not secure being shipped via UPS, how can I be other far more valuable items are secure. Until the security of my property is assurred I will no longer be shipping anything via UPS. And I will be advising those who offer ship any item to me via UPS to find another carrier as any parcel shipped to me via UPS will be refused! Jerrold Lundgard Peace River, Alberta >Dear UPS Customer: > >Thank you for your inquiry. We received your recent E-mail regarding >the theft of handguns. It is our belief that if just one handgun is >lost or stolen while in transit, that is one handgun too many. We are >very proud of the work ethic of the more than 330,000 men and women who >represent UPS in this country and around the globe. Their reputation >for excellence is unsurpassed in the industry. > >Thank you for using UPS Internet Services. > >Joe >10/01/99 S-11 >customer.service@ups.com >http://www.ups.com > > > Karen & Jerrold Lundgard Peace River, Alberta mailto:lundgark@telusplanet.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 16:29:12 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: 'SECRET' LETTER PROVES RCMP PLAYED POLITICS NEWS RELEASE October 21, 1999 For Immediate Release 'SECRET' LETTER PROVES RCMP PLAYED POLITICS TO SUPPORT GUN REGISTRY "RCMP Headquarters in Ottawa stopped an independent survey of front-line RCMP officers in 1995." Ottawa - Today, Garry Breitkreuz, MP for Yorkton-Melville and Firearms Critic for the Official Opposition, released more embarrassing documents obtained under the Access to Information Act. This time Breitkreuz caught the RCMP playing partisan politics to hide the fact that front-line RCMP officers oppose the Liberal's gun registration scheme. One document shows that the RCMP surveyed 291 serving RCMP officers in Saskatchewan and found 91% opposed to 'the registration of all firearms as proposed in Bill C-68'. The document added, 'Most of the comments accompanying the survey indicated that they felt the legislation would be unenforceable, too expensive and labour intensive.' Breitkreuz revealed, "Another document stamped 'SECRET' proves the RCMP did what the government needed and suppressed any further polling of RCMP members." The 'SECRET' letter dated May 23, 1995, put a stop to an independent survey of RCMP members to determine their views on gun control legislation. The Commanding Officer of 'E' Division in Vancouver, B.C. had already approved a signed agreement with Dr. Gary Mauser of Simon Fraser University to conduct the survey. The 'SECRET' letter signed for the Deputy Commissioner of Operations, F.G. Palmer, from RCMP Headquarters in Ottawa stated, "Further, the benefit of this survey at this point in time is questionable since the Commissioner has already stated his position on Bill C-68." "Clearly, the Commissioner of the RCMP had taken a position to support the Liberal government's controversial gun registration scheme without even considering the views of his front-line officers," observed Breitkreuz. "RCMP officers are now calling my office and explaining the problems this ill-conceived legislation is creating for them in the field. Add this to the budget and staffing problems and it's no wonder the RCMP are 'demoralized' as stated in a Canadian Police Association news release." Portions of the 'SECRET' letter have been blanked out, but one line tells it all. Deputy Commissioner Palmer wrote, "Despite the written agreement, once the survey is conducted, acknowledgement of it cannot be denied. We must ensure the RCMP is not perceived as partisan." "Breitkreuz commented, "So it's not partisan for the Commissioner of the RCMP to support the most controversial piece of legislation passed since the Liberals took power, but it is partisan to report what thousands of RCMP officers actually think of this same legislation. In the minds of the Commissioner and his brass puppets, it's only partisan if you oppose the Liberal agenda but not if you support it." Another document in the package clearly showed the political connection. Sgt. G.F. Poth wrote in a May 12th, 1995 memo: "This misinterpreting would place the RCMP in a very embarrassing position by seemingly bringing into disrepute the position of the Commissioner, the Deputy Commissioner, NPS and the Solicitor General have taken on Bill C-68." Breitkreuz concluded, "Now, does anyone still think the RCMP brass operates independently of their political masters? - -30- For copies of the documents, please call: Yorkton Office: (306) 782-3309 Ottawa Office: (613) 992-4394 e-mail: breitg0@parl.gc.ca ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #184 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:parry@ionline.net List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ Digest Back-issues: by FTP (cd pub/cdn-firearms/Digests), or visit the Cdn-Firearms web site (above), or put the next command in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v03.n022 end (022 is the digest issue number and 03 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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