Received: by dot.crosswinds.net (mbox republican) (with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.31 1998/05/13) Thu Nov 4 15:55:58 1999) X-From_: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Thu Nov 4 00:43:19 1999 Return-Path: Received: from broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (majordomo@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca [198.169.128.1]) by dot.crosswinds.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA40177 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 00:43:17 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA08201; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 19:59:33 -0600 Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 19:59:33 -0600 Message-Id: <199911040159.TAA08201@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca> X-Authentication-Warning: broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: majordomo set sender to owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca using -f From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #190 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Wednesday, November 3 1999 Volume 03 : Number 190 In this issue: Kamploops Confiscation Barnett Range IN 30 DAYS REGISTRATION EQUALS CONFISCATION lend, lease, or buy and register More futility behind the gun laws LTTE CFO Ontario statistics.... Letter to Editor U.S. Purchases Re: cc s337 in practice Dial 911 and die radio show Re: cc s337 in practice ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 19:53:13 -0600 From: Brian Drader Subject: Kamploops Confiscation Myles wrote: "I know of two instances here in Kamloops where items were seized and a judge ordered the release of those items but the RCMP refused to do so. When the relevant sections of the cc were mentioned the police just shrugged and said "so... ?" When queried, the RCMP members commented that no one in the detachment would effect an arrest, and the crown was very unlikely to lay charges." Yep, I agree - the crown is probably not going to lay charges unless you know some people within the system who have the discretion to prosecute. Even if you know these people, you probably don't want to be using up high-level favors just to get your items returned - - so do it via a private prosecution. In my case, the CFO's office and the city police were aware that I had previously pursued a private prosecution and successfully obtained a conviction. I showed up at the evidence control unit with a brand new, up-to-date criminal code (student's edition, so that anyone could understan! d the intent of a statute in a heartbeat) and a signed dated letter indicating my willingness to move forward with a charge. I had previously phoned ahead to indicate my intent, and by the time I arrived to collect my items, none of that unpleasantness was necessary. So, if someone should claim that no one will prosecute them for violating s337, just let 'em know about private prosecutions. Or just arrest them after you've formally and in writing demanded your goods, and they've refused. :) Personally, I planned to ask nicely and deliver the demand if I was refused, then return with quality witnesses and video equipment and repeat the demand the following day - at which point an arrest would be attractive. An interesting point here: I believe a public servant would be "creating a public nuisance" (another criminal code offence) if they failed to either approve, refuse, or defer to a supervisor regarding the delivery of your goods. If they refuse, you can arrest them for ! s337. If they give you to a supervisor, you probably get someone who's more informed. If they give you your goods, then you've achieved your objective. Finally, if they do none of those, then they are "creating a public nuisance" by failing to perform their duties and can be arrested for such. I performed my successful prosecution without the assistance of a lawyer, but I don't recommend that route for everyone. Cheers, Brian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 19:53:29 -0600 From: "boz" Subject: Barnett Range Manny: You infer in your message that the Barnett range was shut down because of the suicide. This was not the case. As for a list of ranges in BC that will be a very short list as of Dec 1 as any range where restricted firearms are discharged that has not been approved using the new range guidelines will not be permitted to operate. To date I think the number of ranges that have passed the inspection is in the vicinity of 5. Having discussed how the new guidelines are applied I would suggest that many ranges will not meet the standard. The rifle and shotgun facilities may get a reprieve but if they do it will only be temporary. Our Attorney General is a supporter of the Firearms Act and is working very hard to see it comes into force as planned. He has even sanctioned the made in BC range construction guidelines contrary to what he infers in press releases. Bob Boswell Duncan BC ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 19:53:09 -0600 From: "Tom Zinck" Subject: IN 30 DAYS REGISTRATION EQUALS CONFISCATION IN 30 DAYS REGISTRATION EQUALS CONFISCATION On Dec 1, 1999, thirty days from now, Anne Mclellan, Allan Rock, and Jean Chretien will be proven to be liars. On Dec 1, registration equals confiscation. "But I don't own a prohibited firearm !" you say, "This will not effect me!" you mumble. I hear this almost every time I talk about the upcoming rounds of gun confiscation. Time to wake-up !!! If even ONE firearms is seized from a law-abiding person without compensation, then we have lost. If the Liberals can get away with stealing ONE firearm from ONE Canadian, then they can take them all. I am sure that Liberals are looking for a way to get around this deadline, as the unintended consequences of this first round of mass firearm confiscations become clear to even the most incompetent civil servants. Of course all the owners of newly-prohibited firearms have options including selling the firearm to a grandfathers person, disposing of the barrel, modifying the caliber or barrel length, etc. However ALL of this options still result in the same thing, the loss (or loss of value) of you privately owned property ! Yes, this round of gun confiscations will be fought in the courts, and the messed-up registry will not be able to PROVE that anyone owns any particular firearm, but the problem is that we have an elected federal government that thinks that seizing personal property without compensation, for no valid reason is just, and "in the interest of public safety". The only solution, IMHO, is to continue to stand up to the injustices and start NOW working towards the next federal election. The only solution is to elected a majority Reform government, and have them enact the Practical Firearms Control System. My one hope is that my son can grow up in a country that respects its citizens, in a country that places individual rights and freedoms over the desires of special interest groups. - -Tom Reform, OHA, NFA, ARRA, JPFO, NRA, GOA http://www.comnet.ca/~tzinck Frustrate a Liberal : Lease a gun today ! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 19:52:51 -0600 From: John Simmer Subject: lend, lease, or buy and register Just returned from Vancouver island gun show, sponsered by V.I.A.C.A., held Oct. 30-31 in Victoria. Great to see Dennis Sorensen with posters displaying the options of lending or leasing firearms. Guns may be borrowed with a damage deposit (value of the gun), and if in the future you decide you want to purchase the gun then a transfer/registration can be done. He also had the leasing forms available. Very uplifting to see the posters on display. I estimate the guns being borrowed out numbered the sold and registered ones by 8 to 1. The C.F.O. people didn't have a tape measure to check barrel length! maybe not expecting to do much except sit there. A Mossberg 22 took three hours to register, couldn't find it on the famous FRT disk. A good show, I'm going to display a few posters myself at the next HACS show in Burnaby. Regards, John Simmer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 19:53:03 -0600 From: "Gunter, Lorne (EDM_EXCHANGE)" Subject: More futility behind the gun laws appeared in the Edmonton Journal Sunday 31 October 1999 [PLEASE NOTE: This is a longer version of my column than made it into print. We at the Journal recently relaunched our paper and the column "holes" in the new version are not always the same size as in the old. The edited version is very faithful to my original. It is the version that should be consulted for the purposes of quotation. But since this version includes a few barbs that recipients might enjoy, I am sender the longer one for your amusement.] In its obsessive, pig-headed and ignorant rush to register all the gopher guns and target pistols in the country, it is entirely likely the Liberal government in Ottawa will end up getting more Canadians killed than would ever have been saved had the registry lived up to the fantastical promises made in order to sell it. This shouldn't surprise. Liberals, both big and small-l, are famous for getting stung by the law of unintended consequences. Liberals devised universal welfare to eliminate poverty and in the attempt expanded the ranks of the poor. They made divorce easier to get to free wives from abusive husbands and make women more independent, and ended up causing half the marriages since to break up and shackling vast numbers of women to the poverty of single motherhood. They raised taxes to pay for their multitude schemes and killed the jobs that generate the income to pay the taxes. Why shouldn't it be that the when Liberals set out to reduce murders, accidental death and suicides by making every homeowner, farmer and hunter declare his or her firearms to the government the end result would be an increase in the number of dead Canadians? It fits the pattern. In the nearly 11 months since the Liberals imposed their universal registry on the nation's recreational firearms community, black market gun sales have boomed. Scores of legitimate gun shops have gone under or are about to. But under-the-tables sales are as healthy as all get out. In large part, this is because the Liberals new gun laws instantly criminalized hundreds of thousands of gun sales that for centuries had been legal. Canadians have always sold each other weapons of all sorts privately, including firearms. Such over-the-fence transactions occur as often as a quarter-million times each year, perhaps more. Thanks to Justice Minister Anne McLellan's hysterically rigid insistence that each and every gun sale, even these neighbour-to-neighbour sales, be approved by her department in advance, nearly all these sales are now so-called black market sales. But beyond this administrative expansion of the black market, there has been a real increase in the number illegitimate sales. Since buying a gun the Ottawa-approved way through a licensed gun shop often takes days or weeks, and costs at least $25 just for the government imprimatur, many frustrated owners are turning to - let's call them - less-conventional suppliers. This action on the part of otherwise law-abiding firearms afficionados is lamentable, even as it is entirely understandable. Before Ottawa will approve sales to the banker down the block, or your kid's hockey coach, or the university prof who hunts with his buddies each fall, it wants to know if they are alcoholics, if they are good spouses, if they have ever lost a job or gone bankrupt, if their neighbours have any complaints about them. It wants them to build or buy expensive safes for their guns and others for their ammunition. It wants them to take lengthy and expensive safety courses; to get permission (in many cases) before they move their guns from one home to another, or from home to the shooting range. It even wants to approve in advance the willing of guns to their heirs. And Ottawa wants legitimate gun owners to pay handsomely to clear all these obstacles. Ottawa's anti-gun minions hoped this labyrinth of inconvenience, harassment and bureaucratic proctology would, over time, cause Canada's four or five million firearms owners to give up their sport. Recreational shooting and hunting would become more trouble than they are worth, and firearms owners would voluntarily turn their guns over to police. Rather than out-and-out confiscation, this was a scheme for constructive disarmament of the civilian population. But here comes the law of unintended consequences, again. There is no justification for denying law-abiding citizens the ownership of firearms in a democracy, in a political system in which they are the ultimate sovereigns. This was never a sentiment much articulated in Canada. Yet it turns out it was deeply held. The gun registry is bitterly resented by legitimate gun owners in Canada, not just for its cost and convoluted intrusiveness, but for its underlying message that the government does not trust its own people. So as McLellan's own group of hand-picked firearms experts recently told her, her government's legislation has prompted "an unchecked growth in the most unwanted elements of the firearms trade...the black market." Black market guns cannot be traced. Under the old system, gun shop owners often helped police identify suspects and the guns they purchased before they committed their crime. Black market gun sellers almost never talk; to do so would be to admit to participating in an illegal act (the under-the-table sale). Black market guns are many times more likely to be used in crimes. Thus black market sales equal more gun deaths. McLellan and the Liberals' gun registry equals more black market sales. Therefore, McLellan and the Liberals' registry equals more gun deaths. Moreover, three weeks ago, proof arrived of how futile the registry has been from the start. Statistics Canada says that of the 555 murders in 1998, just 151 (27.2 per cent) were committed with guns. Of those, only nine per cent, just 14, were committed with a legally owned, unregistered rifle or shotgun. All the rest were committed with guns that have had to be registered since 1934 (handguns) or with illegal guns, such as sawed-off shotguns or full automatics. Ottawa is spending hundreds of millions of dollars, subjecting decent Canadians to horrendous administrative abuse and spurring an enormous black market on the off chance of saving 14 lives a year. Dumb, dumb, dumb. Lorne Gunter, Columnist The Edmonton Journal P.O. Box 2421 Edmonton AB CANADA T5J 2S6 off tele: (780) 429-5267 fax: (780) 429-5500 (requires a cover page) cell: (780) 916-0719 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 19:53:18 -0600 From: "The Gayders" Subject: LTTE Letter sent to the Editor of the Hamilton Spectator: Dear Sir; The Spectator of October 18th contained an excellent example of why hunters and gun owners feel persecuted in this country. In the "In Brief" section, readers are confronted with the header that states; "Two hunters killed in separate accidents". This immediately conjures up images of shooting accidents, and the many people who quickly "skim" the news would be left with that impression. Only when reading further is it revealed that one hunter died in a boating accident and the other in a car crash involving a tractor-trailer. Despite the many myths, half-truths, rhetoric and bias repeatedly levied against hunting by the media, it remains one of the safest forms of recreation and food gathering in our society. Readers of the Spectator deserve headlines that are more accurate and less inflammatory. 132 Words Sincerely, John A. Gayder St.Catharines, ON ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 19:52:43 -0600 From: "Clive Edwards" Subject: CFO Ontario statistics.... Probably calculated the same way the Justice Department stats are.... If a firearm is found at a "crime scene" or even the location of a call it is counted as a firearm used in a crime for statistical purposes even if it cannot be tied to any criminal use and even if it is indeed safely stored according to the law. Clive ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 19:52:55 -0600 From: "Tom Zinck" Subject: Letter to Editor Here is a copy of the letter I just sent off to the Edmonton Journal in response to the letter written by Wendy Cukier on Oct 31. - -Tom RE : Wendy Cukier's Oct 31 Letter In the last line of her letter of Oct 31, Wendy Cukier states asks if Canadians "can really count on the gun lobby to make them safer". In short the answer is YES, and here is an example why. Several months ago I was approached by a friend who wanted some information on how to teach young children what to do if they discover a firearm either away from home, or while at school. After calling my local police force, the Canadian Safety Council, CAVEAT, and calling the Canadian Firearms Center I came up empty-handed. I could not contact the Coalition for Gun Control as they don't seem to have a web site, or even a listed phone number. NONE of these organisations had ANY safety information on how to street-proof young children when it comes to firearms. After contacting the National Firearms Association (403-640-1110) they provided my friend, who is not a NFA member, a free copy of a comprehensive training program called "Gun Proofing your Children". So, it seems that Canadians can count on the "gun lobby" to make them safer. As for what Ms. Cukier has done "for the children", your guess is as good as mine. Tom Zinck ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 19:53:21 -0600 From: "W. Jon McCormick" Subject: U.S. Purchases Unless things have changed dramatically in the last few months the process in north-western Washington has been that I purchase a firearm at either of my frequented dealers in Bellingham and they transport the firearm to the border and I then process it like a purchase in B.C. Possibly it is because I have a concealed weapons permit for the state and a firearms license but friends have made purchases recently in the same manner. Anyone know if this has changed please advise. Jon BCNFA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 19:53:06 -0600 From: Dave Tomlinson Subject: Re: cc s337 in practice >I would like to let you know that reciting cc s337, 494, etc. is not >always successful in getting the police, etc. to release one's >property. I know of two instances here in Kamloops where items were >seized and a judge ordered the release of those items but the RCMP >refused to do so. When the relevant sections of the cc were mentioned >the police just shrugged and said "so... ?" When queried, the RCMP >members commented that no one in the detachment would effect an >arrest, and the crown was very unlikely to lay charges. So they were >not swayed by this tactic. CC s. 494 authorizes the person demanding the property to arrest the police officer. He must then hand the arrested person over to another police officer as soon as possible, but the situation is both embarrassing and difficult to deal with for the police. Threats, as you say, do not work. Pointing out what the law requires often does not work. Arresting a police officer for an indictable offence often DOES work, as they want to get out of it without putting anything down in the books and records -- which cannot be done unless the arresting person agrees to it. David A Tomlinson National President, National Firearms Association Ph: (780)439-1394 Fax: (780)439-4091 natpres@nfa.ca Box 1779, EDMONTON AB, T5J 2P1 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 19:53:24 -0600 From: "The Gayders" Subject: Dial 911 and die radio show ALERT FROM JEWS FOR THE PRESERVATION OF FIREARMS OWNERSHIP America's Aggressive Civil Rights Organization October 31, 1999 Exciting National Radio Interview about Dial 911 and Die National radio talk host Jeff Rense will interview JPFO's Richard Stevens about Dial 911 and Die Friday, November 5, 1999 7 P.M. Pacific (8 P.M. Mountain) (9 P.M. Central) (10 P.M. Eastern) You can also hear the program on the internet using RealAudio. Click on the website http://www.sightings.com/ and follow instructions. The interview might be archived on that website also, so you might be able to hear it at a later date. If we can get a list of local radio stations, then we will send that to you in a future alert. (To sign up for JPFO alerts, click on http://www.jpfo.org/ and follow the instructions. Mr. Rense has indicated he will devote two hours to the interview. Please pass this news on to all other web sites and forums where people are interested in legal issues, personal and family protection, firearms laws and individual rights. Dial 911 and Die collects the law from all 50 states and tells the stories that show how the government generally owes no duty to protect individual citizens from crime or criminal attack. Every legal principle and story comes from published legal authorities and case decisions (all footnoted and referenced). The book also contains 45 stories of successful personal self-defense against aggressors, taken from news reports. The book is only $11.95 postage paid. The Liberty Crew at JPFO. - ---------------------------------------------------------------- Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership PO Box 270143 Hartford, Wisconsin 53027 Phone: 262-673-9745 Fax: 262-673-9746 http://www.jpfo.org/ - ---------------------------------------------------------------- To subscribe to JPFO Alerts: send a blank e-mail to: jpfo_alerts-subscribe@topica.com To Un-subscribe to JPFO Alerts: send a blank e-mail to: jpfo_alerts-unsubscribe@topica.com In either case, respond to the confirmation message you will get back. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 19:52:48 -0600 From: "P & M Ryan" Subject: Re: cc s337 in practice Myles Bruns wrote: > I would like to let you know that reciting cc s337, 494, etc. is not > always successful in getting the police, etc. to release one's > property. I know of two instances here in Kamloops where items were > seized and a judge ordered the release of those items but the RCMP > refused to do so. When the relevant sections of the cc were mentioned > the police just shrugged and said "so... ?" When queried, the RCMP > members commented that no one in the detachment would effect an > arrest, and the crown was very unlikely to lay charges. So they were > not swayed by this tactic. First, you have to make the arrest in the correct way. You will get nowhere by telling the person that he is simply under arrest. There are other things that have to be done. You have to: - - Inform the person as to who you are, (your name and what interest you have in the proceedings), - - why they are under arrest, (what the charge is), - - tell the person their charter rights, - - ask if they understand, - - ask if they wish to contact a lawyer now, and - - offer them a phone number for legal aid in your area. In the back of your Criminal Code of Canada there is a section titled Forms of Charges. This is where you get the wording for the charge. The wording for section 337 is: Section 337 Public servant refusing to deliver property A.B. on or about the..........day of........... 19.........., at the ..... of ...... in the said (territorial division) being [OR having been] employed in the service of Her Majesty in right of Canada [OR in right of a province OR in the service of a municipality] and entrusted by virtue of that employment of that receipt [or custody or management or control] of anything did refuse [OR fail] to deliver it to C.D., a person who was authorized to demand it and did demand to wit (specify the particulars of the offense), contrary to s. 337 of the Criminal Code of Canada. The charter rights that you tell the person that you are arresting is: It is my duty to inform you that you have the right to retain and instruct council without delay. Don't forget to ask if they understand and offer the offender a legal aid phone number. Second, if the other police officers will not do anything your next step is to find a Justice of the Peace (JP) and lay an information against the officer. Now here is what that means... A JP is a judge that has been appointed by the Lieutenant Governor of the province. The JP does certain functions such as issuing summons and warrants. For example, it is a JP that the police go to for a search warrant. To lay an information means to tell the JP what took place, give the JP proof of what took place and request that a warrant for the arrest of the officer be issued. Remember, the evidence must be enough to convince the JP or the JP will not issue the warrant. The most easy way to do all this is to have all the T's crossed and I's dotted. Be very diligent in collecting the evidence. Use all the tools that you can get. For example you could try using 2 small tape recorders to tape the conversation with the offending officer. One recorder is well hidden on your person the other not so well hidden. If the police officer finds one you can turn it off right in front of him and carry on with taping. This stuff is legal and can be used in court. See section 184.2(1) Interception With Consent in the Criminal Code of Canada. Another thing that can be done is for you to get a copy of the provincial act that administers the way police can operate in your province. In Ontario it is the Police Services Act. Then, should an officer refuse to take the person that you have arrested into custody you can remind the officer of his duty under the act by quoting chapter and verse (getting it all on tape). The last (but not least) things that you should have when you do all this are have a notebook and pen. The notebook is used to refresh you memory should you have to go to court. You can use the notebook in court when you are on the stand by simply asking the Judge for permission. However the defense lawyer will want to see it. The pen should be black since that colour is best when photocopies of the notebook are made. The notebook should be the same type that the police use. Why, because in the pads there is a section that lists the things to say when placing a person under arrest. You can order these pads from Triform Business Systems Ltd. http://www.triform.com/ or look up Police Equipment in the phone book and go to the store. Some of the pads just have lined paper, while others have the cautions written inside that you will have to make to do the arrest. Make sure you order the pads with the information inside. A little note about using the pads: When you write in the pad you should print, when you make a mistake draw one line through the mistake and initial it and do not leave any blank lines. Put in the following information in the pad: The date, the weather, in the left column the time of the incident, and when you are finished underline and sign under the last entry. The reason for not erasing or whiting out words is that if you distort an entry so that it cannot be read then the defense lawyer can (and will) use this to destroy your creditability resulting in the charges being dropped. One last little thing, remember that if you do this and the person is not found guilty then he or she may sue you. You have to ask yourself, is losing a firearm worth losing your house? Regards to all, Mike R. Simon says: " Remember the 7 P principal, Proper Prior Planning Prevents Poor Performance." ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #190 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:parry@ionline.net List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ Digest Back-issues: by FTP (cd pub/cdn-firearms/Digests), or visit the Cdn-Firearms web site (above), or put the next command in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v03.n122 end (122 is the digest issue number and 03 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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